Foreign And welcome to Market talks I'm Marie Salmon Head of markets at coin Telegraph here on the show we discuss what's shaping the markets with valuable insights from industry leaders Traders and influencers on this week's episode of Market talks we have David gamble who's an account executive and Business Development specialist at blockwareSolutions a blockware infrastructure company that provides Bitcoin and cryptocurrency Mining Services prior to working at blockware Solutions David was the vice president and portfolio manager of sarson funds David is also the founder of Bitcoin wolf a crypto trading educational platform Thank you How's it going David thanks for coming on hey thanks for having me yeah thanks for coming on today I hope everything's good with you uh Bitcoin is doing what Bitcoin does which is basically price is going up or price is going down we're in this kind of pre-halving consolidationZone and you know the market is kind of always being impacted by some unforeseen land bind this week being the old curve finance and CRV price issues impacting altcoins and potentially investor sentiment for Bitcoin so I'm looking forward to digging into some of that with you todayUm so as an analyst on a higher time frame kind of perspective what are your current views on the market structure in the crypto market now yeah you know I think that you know the SEC has definitely made it extremely uh extremely extremely uh prominent that they are coming down on cryptoUm you know along with the fact that we've seen you know Blackrock in the recent xrp news and you know you have funds like Valkyrie and even today with the recent news with uh uh you know with ETFs that a little bit more a little bit more clarity around ethereum and ETFsAnd uh you know these are things that are happening now ultimately this is a very important we're in a very pivotal Point okay the market structure and where we're at right now is really gearing us to get to that 10 trillion dollar market capUm you know in as an industry you know I think that there is you know since 2018 2019 you know when we start first started to flirt with the idea of seeing a trillion dollar uh market cap which coincidentally was right around the same time that you know there were otherProjects involved within traditional Finance Center uh that have to do with you know uh very specific blockchains you know a more centralized blockchains uh such as that of project ion um you know there's you know this has been a very serious matter so I'm I'm extremely excited to see where thisLandscape goes I think that the market structure is exactly where it should be right now um and I think that we'll we'll end up seeing uh we'll end up seeing that this is going to pave the way for the future you know this is uh this is what we'veWe've kind of been waiting for uh in the last in the last few years so it's exciting to see how the turnout's been in terms of you know day-to-day price action we don't see a lot of inflow uh like Bitcoins showing record low volatility right now uh like multi-yearLow volatility inflows until the actual crypto space coming from you know VC funding and coming from uh like coming into like managed products etps all that sort of crypto funds stuff those still remain quite muted so what makes you think that a turnaround is around theCorner well you know it's a couple of things really um really I think you know you you as regulation comes in there's going to be less volatility that's just it kind of goes hand in hand you know regulation breeds in volatility that's what it does you know and I think thatNow that we are starting to see the rise of uh you know more traditional you know institutional players come in and this become less of an of an entrepreneurial kind of uh space which it still is but I believe that there is a lot more room for upside for institutions that beingSaid I mean as someone in in the mining space this is the perfect situation to be in right because we're being agnostic with price we want to see you know you do want to see uh price kind of uh in a range-bound situation right and kind ofLeading into this uh leading from the fact that we've had uh you know past you know hacks and and you know you had the three arrows capital and you had you know Celsius and all of these guys who've basically basically gone under or what have youUm you know these are the bad you know there was a lot of Bad actors in this space right and rightfully so VCS have a responsibility and a fiduciary responsibility to be very very attentive and and do their due diligence beforehand uh in in allocating CapitalUm so you know I think that the that the the Isis starting to thaw I do think that we're going to start seeing a lot more capital inflow come in uh especially since the last ruling of of uh you know the Ripple case and seeingThat and as well as you know a little bit more clarity surrounding the fact that Bitcoin is a is a commodity it's a it's a property uh excuse me so uh you know I think I think that paves it away right the biggest pillar really was making sure that Bitcoin uh is aProperty after that everything else goes do you have any short and long-term expectations for uh for bitcoin's Price action uh you know so I think Rey is here's the thing right like I I I think that the on a short and long-term perspective I do see on a macro you know I'm extremelyBullish on the macro side right uh short-term not so much I do think that we do see you know some downside uh just just briefly um however historically you know eight to nine months and we're we're right around that area eight to nine months prior to the having we do start to seeThat uh that bull market trends start to pick up I mean year-to-date we're we're north of like 70 or 80 percent from you know Market lows right so I mean on a price point Bitcoin is actually doing extremely well right just on a price point perspectiveUm that being said you know I would I would not be um I would not be surprised to see that Bitcoin you know stays in this range uh just for a little while longer right now what that looks like no one has no one has a crystal ball but I do think thatWe're starting to kind of out of that bear Market cycle um and we're uh we're we're starting to see some clear ground here so by more downside what would you say like could you put a percentage to that could you put a a certain price level toThat and for what reason uh might you think Bitcoin could see more downside in the short term I think short term being like three to four months yeah you know it's I think that over the next three to four months I actually don't see Bitcoin going down lower thanYou know I'd say 15 or so um over that span uh I just you know it's it's this isn't this is an environment right now for Regulators to take hold right and ultimately um if we do see downside and when we do see some downside it may end up comingFrom the altcoin space just because of the clarity of surrounding uh you know uh just all coins certain altcoins being Securities right I think there's going to be a lot of shed on that there's going to be a ton of uh of Bloodshed that's ultimately going to come back to bitcoinUm and that's not being me being a Bitcoin Maxi but uh I am I am extremely optimistic in the circulation and Supply uh that kind of comes back to bitcoin all I see Gensler and SEC doing is like saying no no no no no no fine fine fineFine but there's no regulatory framework so I know Republicans are in the house are pushing out out kind of a crypto regulatory framework and a set of rules that might actually provide some clarity and a way forward so people can safely operate and build things in this spaceAnd make them sticky but generally the last two years it's just been all punitive like it's all been punitive and pure punishment and uh kind of legislating on the fly through the SEC which Gensler seems to be attempting to kind of exert his jurisdictional claim over all things crypto right but weHaven't made any strides the fact that last week's story about uh coinbase saying that the SEC told them to stop trading everything except Bitcoin and then the SEC saying no we didn't and then coinbase itself coming out and saying yeah they didn't really say it like that that's that's just proof thatNothing's getting done so we will see won't we well yeah I I think so and ultimately just not not giving uh praise to gangster I don't to be that guy but uh I will say that you know he has a very very important position here rightLike there's uh the reality is is that you know somebody has to sit in that seat and has to make those decisions um and right now we're we've Bitcoin is the best and most Innovative technology that we've seen in the last five thousand years you know we're talkingAbout the fact that there is you know uh you know a digital store of value um the first time ever in cyberspace right digital property and you know that that is legendary right so these decisions that are made today are going to be here for the rest of ourLives especially since we're since we're going into this new uh age of of AI and and you know other really cool thing things that are that are coming up and uh you know again right like you know the reality is is that we can't we don't know what's going to happen and sureThere's a ton of back and forth uh I don't want to get into that but um you know like there's a there's a path forward is what I'm saying yeah I agree and disagree with you so the US and all Regulators could do a better job at kindOf working more uh symbiotically and and transparently so that industry can originate here in industry and stay here right and jobs can stay here because what they're doing now is basically pushing all the builders overseas and making it hard to innovate here so I wish that government was more efficientRight I bet we can agree on that yeah I agree I agree so you work in the mining space and you know up until I would say really maybe two years ago or the last two years the Bitcoin mining spaces it had been kind of what's the word for itWhen you can't opaque yeah it was opaque it was it was they're kind of elusive species these miners right and a lot of their actions took place over the counter and Beyond big coin network data and on chain data which is also kind of grown a lot and become a lot moreExpansive and easier to interpretate and it's now data science right and people use that in their trading like but beyond that there wasn't much insight for the public or for retail investors into what Bitcoin Miners did how it impacted price how it impacted um kind of like the decentralization andSafety of the network and just how integral it is itself to everything about Bitcoin so what would you say is something that that the Bitcoin mining industry what's something about the Bitcoin mining industry that people Overlook or are completely unaware of yeah you know it's a great question umTop of mind I really think that the that the thing that people really Overlook is is lead time right or at least one of those things right and there's two things what is that right the lead time is is you know is the is the time at which you're actuallyPurchasing the miner and then they come in right so in that time you can have opportunity cost right so you're you're looking for the most most efficient most quickest way to get your miners online and hatching that's the key to the game right you don't want to necessarily getStuck in a in a moment where you're you know uh like a core scientific or something and you know you've bought thousands of rigs that aren't going to be delivered for six or seven or eight months right uh that sometimes doesn't work of course there was other variablesThere but you know you you ideally you want to be in a situation where you can get your miners as quick as possible and get them hashing as quick as possible um and on the you know in in on that topic right uh you also want to make sure thatYou're getting to the point where you have in confined liquidity right so one of those things that people really don't seek or don't really uh think about kind of coming into the mining space is you know is the is the commoditization of of these miners right so these are theseAre no different than you know buying you know glass bottles at this point right or or uh or you know is you know or just buying some kind of uh you know asset right that has value that you can you know you can essentially produce a quote unquote cash dividend on right soYou know the idea now uh and something that's really cool and interesting at least specifically with with uh with with block where and where we're revolutionizing the game is you know as a marketplace right in 2018 and 2019 having the idea you know having the having the ability to be able to youKnow Buy in and sell out of you know certain miners um you know that was Far misunderstood right the you know the the whole industry in the mining space has been very uh OTC based as you mentioned right so everything is really going you know happening in Telegram and some of theseSocial media outlets and um you know it's it's it's very inefficient right you know where where we've kind of come into play and where things have gotten a lot more uh creative and a lot more efficient is the marketplace that we offer right so we're talking TurnKey miningUm you know do you own the minor you own the hardware it's your hat it's it's your Miner it's your Hardware uh you're not you're not buying hash rate uh and you're online within 24 hours right the same day we can buy a minor you know now you'll be online byLunchtime right or you know yeah so so that's uh that's one of the things that miners in in you know certain kind of retail the retail public doesn't really think about um until you know you realize that there is there is there is gain to be made withThe miner itself because that price correlates with does go with the price of Bitcoin in certain aspects right like so so that is uh that's a really interesting point there and we do have uh you do have a screen share here so I can show you just a little bit about aboutWhat that looks like yeah so this is the marketplace right so the marketplace is uh super interesting because you're able to kind of go on here you're able to look at the miners um you know and uh you can take a look at the specs of the miner you're able toSee this and at the click of a couple of buttons you're able to purchase a minor right so on this here you're able to see everything about where this Miner is located the hash rate you know the power usage of the miner you know the revenueUh you know the gross revenue of that Miner and you're able to uh you're not only are you able to make you know a purchase on a miner but you're also able to do a bid right so this is a really cool fun uh feature here and you'reYou're actually able to take a look at you know possibly like a an s19j Pro 120 Tera hash right and you know I might put bid in here for um let's see maybe it might be like 0. uh what's the current rate for the minor anyways yeah I might put a bitIn there for um you know for maybe a couple of satoshi's or something or a couple yeah whatever it's going to be and I'm able to put that bid in you know if it's taken it's taken at this point now you can actually see the last open bid rightIn the last accepted uh the last accepted bid and ask for this Miner right so which is really great right so this functionality is amazing so I'll actually you know put one in now live and uh you know hopefully hopefully it gets picked up right so kind ofLowballing a little bit right but that's the market um and uh you know we have been successfully created and if it's taken uh you know then you know I'll purchase this Miner and uh that's the that's the uh that's the reality there right so asYou can see here there's been a few bids there um uh and uh we'll see what happens here but uh yeah I mean this is uh this is the new age this is this is revolutionizing the market the the mining space as it is right so uh super great feature super greatUm super great efficiency within the mining space uh and this is something that I think uh you know in the fourth in you know in the future looking forward uh something that we can expect to see a ton of a ton of volume and uhJust a new asset class in itself yeah I get what you're saying about it it allows for the instant uh access to liquidity and for miners that want to get Mining and have a certain order quantity that they want to secure they can do that faster right um kind of likeIn a more trusted place with a better Broker Than how we used to have to do things which was like talking to someone in China and hoping that they would send you the stuff that it would be working if some of the stuff is broken or itBreaks you send it back there's an expense with that you don't know like when you're gonna get it back there's the language barrier so um you know a universal Marketplace place for people to kind of put out their ask and set their bids that's that is a good thing um regarding mining yeahShould someone start mining now or would it be wiser to wait until after the having or um an alternate of that question now is if you're not mining now are you not going to make it uh you know I think that if you want so you know there's there's a specificCycle within the mining space that you know certain people also don't don't look at and I think that you know the truth of the matter is is that you should always be stacking Bitcoin this is just in my personal opinion right not not yeah not funny not Financial advice correctUm I think that I think that the you know the the reality is is that if you could you know if if you could get your hands uh around the fact that you know mining is the best way to actually dollar costs average into Bitcoin you know there is no there is noSecondary to that right the real the really quite the real the real uh answer to that really is uh at least to the retail is getting educated right I think I think it's a it's a big it's a there's a big gap here right and uh I do thinkThat mining is a great strategy right now I mean what other industry could you make 29 in right now right that this is what you're making today with Bitcoin mining per annum right that's 29 per annum with like s19 XPS there is no other industry right now that you'reGoing to be able to number one build and get a scarce asset um on a consistent basis and be able to see that you know not just on a monthly basis but on a daily basis right so you're you're constantly seeing you know these stats kind of come in right so uhYou know to the accumulation of 29 a year per annum and that's based on bitcoin spot price today as it is today right so you know of course that does change um but you know I mean when you're just looking and putting pen to paper youKnow I mean we're for thinking about you know real estate investment trusts and you know uh Ralphs and you know some of the other products right is for myself coming from the mutual fund background I mean some of these guys offering seven eight you know nine percent you know that's barely hitting inflationBitcoin at least for in this sense right over the next over the next 10 years you're looking at Bitcoin look you know seeing a minimum of 150 right in terms of just in terms of just your your your your gross right like intrusive that right so with this being said I mean youHave you know you have a ton of upside here plus you're buying the asset uh of having and getting that access to a dual exposure kind of Market um where you have both the asset and the miner itself right so you have a lot of things working for you right so you saidPeople should be buying Bitcoin as frequently as possible and of course like allocation size has to align with one's risk and tolerance for loss and all that sort of thing but uh recently there was this report floating around I forget if it was BlackRock or whoever it was fromLike two years ago right and endless study uh the person that wrote it was suggesting that the 60 40 portfolio is dead the 70 30 portfolio is dead Bitcoin allocation should be like 85 what's your thought on that you know I mean as a bitcoiner myself I think BitcoinAllocation but beyond that like realistically realistically though like for your mom for your dad for your grandparents for your little brother I don't know for your brother's fiance for the average person who's working 40 hours a week has a you know whatever they have a certain amount of debt that they're trying toPay off they are moderately you know they're moderate in their Investments they're not looking at charts all day long right someone comes to the HR to the break room at their job twice per year from Charles Schwab and like talks to them about portfolio rebalancing and all that we're talkingAbout that type of person what's your thought on 85 allocation given the current economy um the kind of like compound return people are getting from markets and whatnot like is that reasonable is that unreasonable will it become reasonable what's your real thought on that 85 allocation for the retail public is just unrealisticThat's not happening yeah it's it's not but you know I do think that there's room to say that 10 to 15 is something that you should be looking at on a consistent basis that's a bump up from one to three isn't it one to three was the guidance from pomplianoIn the Paul Rhodes those guys like one to three years ago that's what they were saying so 10 to 15 is still a sea change isn't it it is I mean you know I think that you know at this point sure you could say and uh I mean we're justLooking at the landscape right uh where I'm talking about getting getting ahead of inflation right and ultimately right now you know I mean there's so much that's happening in the space and there's so many people that you know are are trying to just meet ends meet uh youKnow the one thing that you can do is to just swap out one asset class that doesn't have much value into another and that one thing that has more value is going to be Bitcoin and Bitcoin year upon year is creating value right we're at 100 a year I get that within yourPortfolio so getting rid of REITs maybe your REITs allocation or your um I don't know something else that's underperforming and making a heavier allocation to bitcoin whether it beats a Bitcoin mining stocks or to bitcoin itself or other um companies that are kind of like say Investments to bitcoin That Could Be AWay Forward I get what you're saying there yeah absolutely um so we met up in Miami at mining disrupt and all the bitcoiners were there all the Bitcoin gear was there it was great but we also talked a little bit about uh D5 and I know that you haveA lot of experience with like defy treasury management and stablecoin the whole stablecoin aspect of D5 and whatnot so um honest question is defy dead based off of this week's kind of CRV and curve Finance thing it's a it's unexpected but it was bound toHappen so it's defy did uh I don't think D5 is dead you know I think that Defy is in a is in a building phase um you know look I I think that over the last you know since D5 summer I mean we've had tons of tons of hacks that'sHappened right uh I mean this week specifically you know with the Curve you know uh Viper situation that's happened and occurred um you know it's unfortunate but you know these are honey pots and these guys are getting hit left and right with you know with uh with a ton of malware and aTon of uh turn of Foul Play right from different hackers around the world um you know ultimately you know I do think that defying isn't a point right now where yes we've we've definitely seen uh not really the worst that could happen I think that there's actually going to be more uh myMy personal thought is that we're you know I would take a step back a little bit um you know ever since the recent news with ripple and everything I think you know there's a little bit more clarity in terms of how things will ultimately play outUm I'm actually not you know I'm super bullish when it comes to a lot of the the layer twos that are out there um however I'm not so optimistic about uh you know some of the other protocols out there and and what their what their whole mandate is right uh the reason IGotta interject yeah yeah what could be worse in defy than curve Finance blowing up what could which it hasn't yeah what could be worse than uh we're kind of ignoring the fact that the founder co-founder collateralized like 50 of the available Supply right uh and that's it's not the Viper hack it's theFact that um there's so much kind of bad debt on that one side that right was looking like a contagion threat to um to all of D5 because of these these liquidations but I mean Beyond these recent events of this week then we had like the whole defy thing with TaraAnd dopewan and SB FB sbfs kind of experiments with defy and all the Sam coins like what could be worse coming to D5 than all of that in your view you know and I'll I'll kind of piggyback on something you said here right and it's the toxic deck right and you know theOnly thing that's a work that could be worse is you know uh you know really the elimination of more stable coins uh within the space um and that's going to happen regardless right because you know ultimately most of these protocols you know they wind up creating their ownStable coins which you know ultimately has some kind of effect on a bigger you know a bigger stable coin at play right and whether they're whether they're over collateralized or possibly uh more based on like an algorithmic type coin uh or stable coin you know it could be thereCould be a lot of follow right I think you know protocols like Ave I'm very I'm looking at very closely um you know just to see how they manage that that toxic that that unfortunately curve kind of put out and also you know protocols like frax as well right likeThese guys are you know we're in a or this is a Time battle right now and I think uh uh I think that uh unfortunately you know curve being like the the center of swaps of stable swaps um this was not a good thing for the forThe D5 sector now on that other side you know I do think that this this uh this kind of paves the way for you know the better situations to happen which is uh looking at a lot of uh you know looking at a lot of these protocols that havePacific rwas you know that are actually integrated within their treasury right I'm speaking about maker right I think that the you know these are these are these are protocols that actually have a really or even something as something like Epoch or some of the other protocols out there this is not meShilling I'm saying that there's there are applications and protocols out there that are that are more geared towards getting acquired through institutions because that's ultimately what's going to happen I look at the D5 space as uh most of those Pro most of those protocols being SecuritiesI think that they have a very short lifespan I think that you know curve is the first of many of many behemoths that will probably end up going but ultimately there will be there will be a path forward well where uh many of the protocols that are kind of doing theirHomework and getting a lot of their a lot of their stuff together in terms of making sure they're they're operating correctly are going to be in the best position possible to get you know Acquired and to be able to work with uh companies and and you know biggerCompanies and Banks like JP Morgan and some of these other guys who may look to get involved in the D5 space a lot a lot sooner than what we what we may otherwise think yeah yeah hey this is kind of a joke and not a joke but youCould say the uh the most robust entity within Defy is tether did you see their attestation that came out this week I mean it's stupid if you believe the test if you believe they're balanced books um and like I I'm in no position to critique them and say that they're notValid but man the amount of real world assets that they have um you know in their portfolios and saying the revenues are insane the treasury is insane they're moving into business yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and supposedly so many tether being backed by treasuries and whatnot like come onThat that's possibly the best defy company right there uh I guess except that it's not like really that decentralized but then usdt is endemic to all of defy itself right like as the stable coin so kind of funny last question and we'll wrap up in yourOpinion what is the number one best way for retail investors to successfully invest in crypto without getting wrecked man that's a that's a great question I think that the best way um inadvertently is going to be to get educated I I stand by that I the realityIs is that most most retail has no idea of how many facets and uh you know what's available to them at the end of the day right like you know there there really comes a point in time where you have to take uh initiative in wanting toLearn about the asset that you know our public you know in our economy is is pretty much kind of all circulating around right where you know this is the Talk of the Town right in a lot of different sectors um you know and for any retail personWho's kind of coming into the space and looking to just not get wrecked get exposure sure buy Bitcoin buy Spot Bitcoin but I think um you know like I I do think that you know having having that education piece to seeing what else is out there youKnow how you can actually you know best utilize your Capital to you know make the wise decision um is extremely important uh you know you there is no you unfortunately I mean for me kind of coming up in the space you know it wasn't as easy as just goingOn YouTube and and looking at these videos right there's everything is at your fingertips you know you have great mediums you have great locations here that you can that you can you know look to see to find a lot of great information um and uh yeah I mean yeah I would IWould I would suggest you know starting with uh with someone like cointelegraph or someone like a uh you know uh uh you know 99 Bitcoins or something and and seeking to go through that through that threshold of just learning the basics learn the basics first get understandWhat you're kind of coming into and then from that point you know I mean coinbase has been a great has been a great Advocate right Gemini has been a great advocate of of Bitcoin right so you know there's there's really great uh and easy ways of getting and on getting onboardedInto the into the industry at this point um you know but again right you'll you'll always have that you always have that resistance until you get you've gotten educated and and got a little bit more familiar with the actual product itself 100 percent so don't ape blindlyDo your own research that's like you would do with anything in life right but I like that you say education and just becoming more informed and building your own kind of like conviction and investment thesis is the best way forward for investing in uh new kind of like novel Technologies like blockchainAnd cryptocurrency that's great great advice well David I really appreciate you coming on today it was a an alpha filled talk um win a bit long but we talked about a lot of valuable things and I think your insights are quite powerful if people want to hear more from youUm where's the best place for them to find you yeah you can uh reach out to me on Twitter degamel331 or uh you know Instagram D underscore gamble three four so there you go you've got it folks um David thanks for coming on today it was anAlpha field discussion I think some of the takeaways are um d5's got a a rocky road ahead but the Silver Lining is that institutional entry and real world assets coming on chain um that gives defy just another kind of like real world use case that is needed umAsics or Bitcoin miners or a commodity and uh building a marketplace where miners can access liquidity and also buy gear that they can co-locate or plug in and start hashing with tomorrow this is a way forward that's a service that didn't exist in previous cycles and according to you knowledge is power andKnowledge is everywhere in 2023 so it's not easy to go out and like get yourself hip to game in crypto imagine this day and age it's easy to do that it's not difficult so you know go out and learn absolutely absolutely and thank you so much Ray for having me on here likewiseLikewise I'll be in touch thanks for coming on listeners thanks for tuning in we're here every Thursday at Market talks so uh you know like subscribe leave some comments